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	<title>Comments on: You Say “Solution,” I Say “Pollution”</title>
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	<link>http://www.scienceprogress.org/2009/08/ocean-fertilization-ethics/</link>
	<description>Progressive approaches to science policy</description>
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		<title>By: Miriam Mesa</title>
		<link>http://www.scienceprogress.org/2009/08/ocean-fertilization-ethics/comment-page-1/#comment-6612</link>
		<dc:creator>Miriam Mesa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Dec 2009 18:53:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scienceprogress.org/?p=4244#comment-6612</guid>
		<description>12/13/09

Please click on this youtube link to a video honoring Jacques Cousteau with John Denver&#039;s song CALYPSO.  The song says it all....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl7aM3nCqC0

Song:

To sail on a dream on a crystal clear ocean
To ride on the crest of a wild raging storm
To work in the service of LIFE and the LIVING
In search of the answers to questions unknown
To be part of the movement and part of the growing
Part of beginning to understand

For though we are strangers in our silent world
To live on the land we must learn from the sea
To be true as the tide
And free as the wind-swell
Joyful and loving in letting it be

Miriam:  Lets REVERSE the pollution, and NOT implement seemingly curative solutions which may add other unforseen toxins and dangerous problems to the survival of All Life on Earth.  

Address what the problems are and then reverse them as I stated in my previous comment, and establish clean energy solutions, and do not add to or compound to the problem with seemingly curative solutions. 

All of NATURE is GOD, and we have misused, abused, and mismanaged this GARDEN.  Man, no matter how intelligent and how soul and mind creative, can not see ALL the ramifications of its actions.  We can NOT see the whole creative operative construct of this GARDEN as GOD can, not matter how much we try.  

Man&#039;s consciousness is too low in spiritual self awareness and vibratory spectrum. To assume that we are at a vibratory spiritual stage of development that can forsee all the implications of man&#039;s seemingly curative actions is another proof of man&#039;s enourmous EGO and GREED and INFANTILE stage of development.  

Man&#039;s historical destructive actions has proven that we as a collective whole have not progressed to be allowed and given the honor......LOVE this Garden and develop ethical ways and maybe there is HOPE.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>12/13/09</p>
<p>Please click on this youtube link to a video honoring Jacques Cousteau with John Denver&#8217;s song CALYPSO.  The song says it all&#8230;.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl7aM3nCqC0" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl7aM3nCqC0</a></p>
<p>Song:</p>
<p>To sail on a dream on a crystal clear ocean<br />
To ride on the crest of a wild raging storm<br />
To work in the service of LIFE and the LIVING<br />
In search of the answers to questions unknown<br />
To be part of the movement and part of the growing<br />
Part of beginning to understand</p>
<p>For though we are strangers in our silent world<br />
To live on the land we must learn from the sea<br />
To be true as the tide<br />
And free as the wind-swell<br />
Joyful and loving in letting it be</p>
<p>Miriam:  Lets REVERSE the pollution, and NOT implement seemingly curative solutions which may add other unforseen toxins and dangerous problems to the survival of All Life on Earth.  </p>
<p>Address what the problems are and then reverse them as I stated in my previous comment, and establish clean energy solutions, and do not add to or compound to the problem with seemingly curative solutions. </p>
<p>All of NATURE is GOD, and we have misused, abused, and mismanaged this GARDEN.  Man, no matter how intelligent and how soul and mind creative, can not see ALL the ramifications of its actions.  We can NOT see the whole creative operative construct of this GARDEN as GOD can, not matter how much we try.  </p>
<p>Man&#8217;s consciousness is too low in spiritual self awareness and vibratory spectrum. To assume that we are at a vibratory spiritual stage of development that can forsee all the implications of man&#8217;s seemingly curative actions is another proof of man&#8217;s enourmous EGO and GREED and INFANTILE stage of development.  </p>
<p>Man&#8217;s historical destructive actions has proven that we as a collective whole have not progressed to be allowed and given the honor&#8230;&#8230;LOVE this Garden and develop ethical ways and maybe there is HOPE.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Speer</title>
		<link>http://www.scienceprogress.org/2009/08/ocean-fertilization-ethics/comment-page-1/#comment-6396</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Speer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 17:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scienceprogress.org/?p=4244#comment-6396</guid>
		<description>It is a nice thought to have consent from everyone affected by an action.   But we do not and can not do that when we build a road.  Or, for that matter when we ban the use of land for anything but wildlife.  

The very best you can say is that the HUMANS affected were consulted through a representative process (even in the wildlife preserve example, some species would be adversely affected by letting a wheat field turn to forest.)  

Even then someone who loses a home to a road might feel that they were victimized regardless of how democratic the decision.  To take the extreme case, no one would find a democracy ethical if 51% of the population voted to exterminate the remaining 49%.   Generally I can support seizing a home for either the road or the wildlife preserve if the need is real and if the people in the home are treated properly.   Burt wouldn&#039;t this still violate Professor Hale&#039;s ethical principle?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is a nice thought to have consent from everyone affected by an action.   But we do not and can not do that when we build a road.  Or, for that matter when we ban the use of land for anything but wildlife.  </p>
<p>The very best you can say is that the HUMANS affected were consulted through a representative process (even in the wildlife preserve example, some species would be adversely affected by letting a wheat field turn to forest.)  </p>
<p>Even then someone who loses a home to a road might feel that they were victimized regardless of how democratic the decision.  To take the extreme case, no one would find a democracy ethical if 51% of the population voted to exterminate the remaining 49%.   Generally I can support seizing a home for either the road or the wildlife preserve if the need is real and if the people in the home are treated properly.   Burt wouldn&#8217;t this still violate Professor Hale&#8217;s ethical principle?</p>
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		<title>By: Rand Wrobel</title>
		<link>http://www.scienceprogress.org/2009/08/ocean-fertilization-ethics/comment-page-1/#comment-6041</link>
		<dc:creator>Rand Wrobel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Sep 2009 16:57:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scienceprogress.org/?p=4244#comment-6041</guid>
		<description>Professor Hale,
  You bring up a very important aspect of ocean-based carbon sequestration and geo-engineering in general: how to gain consensus to deliberately manipulate the planet?  While your take is that this difficulty (including nonhumans) “make such technical fixes ethically impermissible”, I would suggest taking on that challenge through our governments which are charged to represent us.  Consider your argument in the face of, say, an eminent asteroid impact.  Would you have us not seek to use technical means to prevent such a catastrophe, because of difficulty in ascertaining a consensus? So, I suggest that the argument is really about risk and alternative means.

Even if we became totally carbon neutral today, the earth would continue to warm for centuries (albeit not as quickly) because of the drastically elevated levels of CO2 already in the air.  So non-carbon energy is necessary but not sufficient. We cannot stop global warming this way, only mitigate it.  We do need to sequester atmospheric CO2.  The economics of “air capture”, which you mention, are extremely impractical (we do not even have a practical means of sequestering at point sources like coal plants), but such technologies should certainly be investigated and evaluated – they just cannot be relied upon. 

My main point is that ocean-based approaches must be extremely thoroughly and responsibly researched.  IMHO, ocean carbon-cycle research is the most important research we can do to actually stop global warming for generations to follow.  I absolutely agree that we cannot screw up the oceans.  We really need to know what sequestration the oceans can safely do.  So, to be clear, I am not a proponent of massive ocean fertilization.  I am a strong proponent of massive research on the ocean carbon cycle.  

This is also to prevent rash unilateral actions. Some country may seize upon iron fertilization as &#039;the solution&#039; and start dumping iron into the oceans without the research and understanding to do it without ecological damage. If that country is China or Japan, we may have a larger conflict.  If we start serious research now, in future years we will know a great deal more, and have scientific knowledge upon which to base debate and consensus.  Is that not in line with your point?

Lastly, to your central point about deliberate manipulation.  I recognize that where most people would not hesitate to recommend reforestation as much as possible, talking about purposefully manipulating the oceans tends to cause a reflex denial.  It is perhaps understandable, in that the oceans are so unknown and acknowledged as vital to all life.  My point is that that lack of  knowledge is the problem, and we can and should be good enough stewards of the oceans to find out what we need to know – just as we have become good gardeners of the earth.  Now we have a driving need to acquire that knowledge as fast as possible. 

Without deliberate planetary-scale CO2 sequestration our children and generations that follow (and non-humans) will most probably face droughts, famines, hurricane, floods and underwater coastal cities?  Would you consider joining me in a call for a “moonshot” research program to understand the ocean carbon cycle?  Then we would have knowledge upon which to base a global discussion and consensus regarding the role oceans could safely play – that is, to be good stewards.

Rand Wrobel
Alameda, CA
rand.wrobel@gmail.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Professor Hale,<br />
  You bring up a very important aspect of ocean-based carbon sequestration and geo-engineering in general: how to gain consensus to deliberately manipulate the planet?  While your take is that this difficulty (including nonhumans) “make such technical fixes ethically impermissible”, I would suggest taking on that challenge through our governments which are charged to represent us.  Consider your argument in the face of, say, an eminent asteroid impact.  Would you have us not seek to use technical means to prevent such a catastrophe, because of difficulty in ascertaining a consensus? So, I suggest that the argument is really about risk and alternative means.</p>
<p>Even if we became totally carbon neutral today, the earth would continue to warm for centuries (albeit not as quickly) because of the drastically elevated levels of CO2 already in the air.  So non-carbon energy is necessary but not sufficient. We cannot stop global warming this way, only mitigate it.  We do need to sequester atmospheric CO2.  The economics of “air capture”, which you mention, are extremely impractical (we do not even have a practical means of sequestering at point sources like coal plants), but such technologies should certainly be investigated and evaluated – they just cannot be relied upon. </p>
<p>My main point is that ocean-based approaches must be extremely thoroughly and responsibly researched.  IMHO, ocean carbon-cycle research is the most important research we can do to actually stop global warming for generations to follow.  I absolutely agree that we cannot screw up the oceans.  We really need to know what sequestration the oceans can safely do.  So, to be clear, I am not a proponent of massive ocean fertilization.  I am a strong proponent of massive research on the ocean carbon cycle.  </p>
<p>This is also to prevent rash unilateral actions. Some country may seize upon iron fertilization as &#8216;the solution&#8217; and start dumping iron into the oceans without the research and understanding to do it without ecological damage. If that country is China or Japan, we may have a larger conflict.  If we start serious research now, in future years we will know a great deal more, and have scientific knowledge upon which to base debate and consensus.  Is that not in line with your point?</p>
<p>Lastly, to your central point about deliberate manipulation.  I recognize that where most people would not hesitate to recommend reforestation as much as possible, talking about purposefully manipulating the oceans tends to cause a reflex denial.  It is perhaps understandable, in that the oceans are so unknown and acknowledged as vital to all life.  My point is that that lack of  knowledge is the problem, and we can and should be good enough stewards of the oceans to find out what we need to know – just as we have become good gardeners of the earth.  Now we have a driving need to acquire that knowledge as fast as possible. </p>
<p>Without deliberate planetary-scale CO2 sequestration our children and generations that follow (and non-humans) will most probably face droughts, famines, hurricane, floods and underwater coastal cities?  Would you consider joining me in a call for a “moonshot” research program to understand the ocean carbon cycle?  Then we would have knowledge upon which to base a global discussion and consensus regarding the role oceans could safely play – that is, to be good stewards.</p>
<p>Rand Wrobel<br />
Alameda, CA<br />
<a href="mailto:rand.wrobel@gmail.com">rand.wrobel@gmail.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Miriam Mesa</title>
		<link>http://www.scienceprogress.org/2009/08/ocean-fertilization-ethics/comment-page-1/#comment-5923</link>
		<dc:creator>Miriam Mesa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 00:26:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scienceprogress.org/?p=4244#comment-5923</guid>
		<description>I do not believe in human bio-engineered technologies that introduce organisms to an ecosystem or ocean to clean-up the mess that our greedy indifferent corporations and society has created.

Red tide &quot;Algeas&quot; and introduced algeans can carry toxic bacteria and mutated funguses that can affixiate fish and make hazards upon our oceans.  Bio-engineered crustaceans and bacteria introduced in the Gulf of Mexico to eat oil spills is creating illness on fish and humans as these organisms are not only eating the oil spills, but have jumped to attack also fish body oils, as well as humans fat/oils who have been in contact with sea water and exposed to these organism in coastal areass. 

The introduction of human bio-engineered organisms and chemicals for cleanup or climate change is not the answer!!
because the full ramification of such an action can not be adequately foreseen nor guaranteed to be safe and can cause unforseen potential harm to fauna, flora and life on our Oceans and Earth.

I believe in cleaning up our waterways, cabon dioxide in our air, and pollutants through the use and application of clean energy technologies - hydrogen, cold fision, Nicoli Tesla thermal harvesting technologies.  By preventing and stopping chemical discharges upon our oceans, re-engineer our coastal areas to prevent toxic chemical run-offs, stop human waste discharges upon our waters, stop bio-engineered mutated funguses by the use of Monsanto Roundup weed killers and toxic chemtrails from being sprayed and introduced in our air and waterways and land which are causing environmental kaos and human illnesses on those exposed.  Close all nuclear plants and coal plants.  This will Reverse the mess we have created upon our planet and our Earth.  

Stop introducing bio-engineered organisms to fix a problem which in turn creates another unforseen hazardous problem....a vicious cycle.   REVERSE or WE WILL DIE.

Human population can be ethically controlled by studying how many humans can certain acres of land sustain to keep the water, air, fauna and flora in surrounding area healthy.  In heavily populated areas like New York a restriction of 1 child per couple, vs in Montana where 3 children per couple will be allowed.  To kill humanity by introducing toxins in food, in our waters, air, and pharmaceuticals is SELF DESTRUCTIVE and will come around to bite the instigators on their ass.   We must ethically manage ourselves, and respect the flora, fauana, air, and water of life as we all are inter-related and inter-connected.

IT is TIME for ETHICAL CHANGE and REVERSE our DESTRUCTION and bring HEALTH to all LIFE on EARTH.  We do not have much time, we are at the point of no return....LETS NOT GIVE UP...LETS fight to instill consciousness in our societies and corrupted corporations and take pro-active action to SAVE the World we live in for future generations.  

Lets give the spirits born into our future generations and future life forms on Earth a healthy clean environment in which to thrive and experience a healthy physical life and learn the lessons they are here to learn and grow.

Miriam M. Mesa
Kenneth City, Florida
(Sensitive, Scrying, Astral Projection)

WE DO NOT HAVE MUCH TIME!!!!  IT IS UPON US!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do not believe in human bio-engineered technologies that introduce organisms to an ecosystem or ocean to clean-up the mess that our greedy indifferent corporations and society has created.</p>
<p>Red tide &#8220;Algeas&#8221; and introduced algeans can carry toxic bacteria and mutated funguses that can affixiate fish and make hazards upon our oceans.  Bio-engineered crustaceans and bacteria introduced in the Gulf of Mexico to eat oil spills is creating illness on fish and humans as these organisms are not only eating the oil spills, but have jumped to attack also fish body oils, as well as humans fat/oils who have been in contact with sea water and exposed to these organism in coastal areass. </p>
<p>The introduction of human bio-engineered organisms and chemicals for cleanup or climate change is not the answer!!<br />
because the full ramification of such an action can not be adequately foreseen nor guaranteed to be safe and can cause unforseen potential harm to fauna, flora and life on our Oceans and Earth.</p>
<p>I believe in cleaning up our waterways, cabon dioxide in our air, and pollutants through the use and application of clean energy technologies &#8211; hydrogen, cold fision, Nicoli Tesla thermal harvesting technologies.  By preventing and stopping chemical discharges upon our oceans, re-engineer our coastal areas to prevent toxic chemical run-offs, stop human waste discharges upon our waters, stop bio-engineered mutated funguses by the use of Monsanto Roundup weed killers and toxic chemtrails from being sprayed and introduced in our air and waterways and land which are causing environmental kaos and human illnesses on those exposed.  Close all nuclear plants and coal plants.  This will Reverse the mess we have created upon our planet and our Earth.  </p>
<p>Stop introducing bio-engineered organisms to fix a problem which in turn creates another unforseen hazardous problem&#8230;.a vicious cycle.   REVERSE or WE WILL DIE.</p>
<p>Human population can be ethically controlled by studying how many humans can certain acres of land sustain to keep the water, air, fauna and flora in surrounding area healthy.  In heavily populated areas like New York a restriction of 1 child per couple, vs in Montana where 3 children per couple will be allowed.  To kill humanity by introducing toxins in food, in our waters, air, and pharmaceuticals is SELF DESTRUCTIVE and will come around to bite the instigators on their ass.   We must ethically manage ourselves, and respect the flora, fauana, air, and water of life as we all are inter-related and inter-connected.</p>
<p>IT is TIME for ETHICAL CHANGE and REVERSE our DESTRUCTION and bring HEALTH to all LIFE on EARTH.  We do not have much time, we are at the point of no return&#8230;.LETS NOT GIVE UP&#8230;LETS fight to instill consciousness in our societies and corrupted corporations and take pro-active action to SAVE the World we live in for future generations.  </p>
<p>Lets give the spirits born into our future generations and future life forms on Earth a healthy clean environment in which to thrive and experience a healthy physical life and learn the lessons they are here to learn and grow.</p>
<p>Miriam M. Mesa<br />
Kenneth City, Florida<br />
(Sensitive, Scrying, Astral Projection)</p>
<p>WE DO NOT HAVE MUCH TIME!!!!  IT IS UPON US!!!</p>
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		<title>By: don daugherty</title>
		<link>http://www.scienceprogress.org/2009/08/ocean-fertilization-ethics/comment-page-1/#comment-5918</link>
		<dc:creator>don daugherty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 04:13:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scienceprogress.org/?p=4244#comment-5918</guid>
		<description>I think you meant dump a couple of tankers full of iron filings into the ocean... you had written tankards..? That would not be very much iron.

Most stuff out of Woods-Hole is pretty accurate. I grew up in New England.

I think they should try this in an area where it can be monitored and the algea boom won&#039;t kill off any oommercial fishing, etc.

Good article, it just might work. But, it will take a lot of algea, to compete with a billion Chinese cars polluting the world in the next twenty years.

Don</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you meant dump a couple of tankers full of iron filings into the ocean&#8230; you had written tankards..? That would not be very much iron.</p>
<p>Most stuff out of Woods-Hole is pretty accurate. I grew up in New England.</p>
<p>I think they should try this in an area where it can be monitored and the algea boom won&#8217;t kill off any oommercial fishing, etc.</p>
<p>Good article, it just might work. But, it will take a lot of algea, to compete with a billion Chinese cars polluting the world in the next twenty years.</p>
<p>Don</p>
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		<title>By: Don Strong</title>
		<link>http://www.scienceprogress.org/2009/08/ocean-fertilization-ethics/comment-page-1/#comment-5910</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Strong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 17:46:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scienceprogress.org/?p=4244#comment-5910</guid>
		<description>Would you be so kind as to give the citation to the paper that you refer to in the text, written by Lisa Drilling and yourself.
Thanks, Don</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would you be so kind as to give the citation to the paper that you refer to in the text, written by Lisa Drilling and yourself.<br />
Thanks, Don</p>
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